0 & 1wt Rod Makers.

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Huw Davies	0 & 1wt Rod Makers.		Lead	[-]
Posts: 62 03/16/09 10:46 PM Forum Supporter	Tags : None Last year I went down to a 2wt rod for the first time - and loved it! It got me thinking that I wouldn't mind trying a 0 or 1wt - but haven't found many manufacturers that produce them. I know about the Sage TLX - but unless I found one second hand for a screaming deal, its a little out of my price range. So, I'm wondering if those in the know could recommend a maker or two that factory-produce 0 or 1wt rods? TIA!
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jkurtz7		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2510 03/17/09 9:03 AM Forum Owner / Administrator	If your heart is set on a 0wt then the only other option is a Dan Craft blank, and build it yourself or have someone build it for you. In a 1wt you have more options. Elkhorn has a 1wt that is reasonably priced as does TFO. http://www.elkhornflyrodandreel.com/Details.cfm?ProdID=33 http://www.templeforkflyrods.com/rods/finesse.html#T Both Rods are priced about the same(under $200). The Elkhorn is 7' while the TFO is 6'9". Elkhorn is not as well known as TFO, but they deserve more attention in my opinion. I plan to do business with Elkhorn in the future. J. The Ultralight Fly Fishing Forum Ultralight Fly Fisherman, and small stream specialist. Last Edited By: jkurtz7 03/17/09 4:21 PM. Edited 1 time.
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flyflingerandy1		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 78 03/17/09 1:34 PM	I would imagine the line rating on the Elkhorn isn't accurate, however, I can attest to the TFO. I cast one at the fly shop a month or so ago. You can try to find a used Orvis Superfine or TL 1wt. The TL is a Mid Flex 6.0 or 6.5 at 8' long IIRC, and the Superfine is a 5.5 Full Flex at 7'6" long. I personally have the Superfine and it is a smooth rod capable of casting much farther than I anticipated. Jerry noted the same thing on the new Superfine 1wt in his review. It also casts well into a brisk wind up to probably 15 mph. Depending upon the waters you are fishing, the short length of the TFO may work to your advantage, and it would be classified as a Mid Flex as well. I would, however, be interested in hearing a review on the Elkhorn 1wt to see if it is indeed a 1wt. Andy
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Trouter2.thebasspond		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 106 03/17/09 4:18 PM	Dave Lewis at Performance Fly Rods makes wonderful custom graphite rods in 1-2-3 weights, in fact any weight you request. He built a 7'0 1-2 weight graphite rod for me a few years ago and It is a quality rod. I just used it today infact catching some nice Bluegills and Crappies, check out his website, real nice guy to deal with. He is located in Harrisburg, Va ......Paul
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jkurtz7		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2510 03/17/09 4:27 PM Forum Owner / Administrator	Well, there is one published number on the CCS database for the Elkhorn 1wt and the ERN is 2.02 for that rod. Since there is only one published test on that rod then we don't have a real average to go by. I'd like to get my hands on one to test and review, and do the numbers on it. Even with an ERN of 2.02 it's gonna cast a 1wt line just fine, that makes the rod a 1.5wt, but like I said, we don't have a real average to go by. J. The Ultralight Fly Fishing Forum Ultralight Fly Fisherman, and small stream specialist.
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jdub		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/17/09 5:16 PM Administrator	flyflingerandy1 wrote: I would imagine the line rating on the Elkhorn isn't accurate, The Elkhorn 2 wt is really a 2 wt, and a medium action one at that, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the 1 wt rating is accurate. Jerry
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Zenkoanhead.clarksclassicfl...		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 968 03/17/09 5:21 PM	An ERN of 2.02 is an ERN of 2.02. By comparison, my Dan Craft SIG III, also advertised as a 1 weight, has an ERN of 1.08. Don
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jdub		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/17/09 10:44 PM Administrator	Zenkoanhead wrote: An ERN of 2.02 is an ERN of 2.02. By comparison, my Dan Craft SIG III, also advertised as a 1 weight, has an ERN of 1.08. Don Sorry Don, I still cling to the old "stick a line on it and see how it casts" school of thought. You and I have already experienced situations where I feel a rod works better a full line weight lighter than the line you would select. You can tell me it's a heavier rod but if it feels good and will cast the full range of distances for me then I don't care what it's Earned Run Average is ;-) BTW, I had an interesting experience today. I had been fishing the PY taper most of last week and was casting beautifully. When I was fishing the Blue I was just thinking how smooth the rod is. But then I switched to my Orvis 1 wt and Elkhorn 2 wt for my last two outings. Today I took the PY out again and could barely cast it! It took me a good 30 minutes to slow down and get back in the groove. Initially I was casting so poorly I had to stop and make sure I had the line through all the guides (I did) .
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jkurtz7		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2510 03/17/09 10:57 PM Forum Owner / Administrator	Jerry, I took my Orvis 7'6" 3wt out Sunday, and it's a SLOOOOOOOOWWWW rod, the slowest in my inventory. I was having issues with tailing loops. I am so used to casting shorter rods that I couldn't quite get the hang of it. With the short rods the rod tip moves through a shorter arc, and you end up speeding up a bit more than you would with a longer rod with the same type of action. I think it's time to try out rods in the med-fast category. Well, my Loomis 4wt is med-fast, and I like it just fine so I won't have a problem going to slightly faster UL rods. J. The Ultralight Fly Fishing Forum Ultralight Fly Fisherman, and small stream specialist.
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flyflingerandy1		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 78 03/17/09 11:00 PM	Jerry, that is why this is so much fun. We all have different ideas! Andy
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Zenkoanhead.clarksclassicfl...		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 968 03/17/09 11:04 PM	So much for the interchangeability of the Midge with graphite theory! As to the ERN, I think bamboo rods can cast 2 and sometimes 3 distinctly different lines. One with the tip, and one with the full rod. The taper is not as progressive as is found with graphite and glass so you can have 2 distinct performance windows. Now, it is true that a faster casting stroke can load a rod more deeply, as can a haul. But to say a ERN of 2 is really a 1, not buying that. You have only defined the parameters of the single performance window. The ERN is defined so as to give a numeric to that window. The deflection of the rod is closely correlated with the ultimate performance of the rod. Thus it is theoretically impossible to have the "wrong" ERN for a given rod unless the taper is grossly eccentric, like that Eagle Claw glass rod. Comments invited. Don
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jdub		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/17/09 11:06 PM Administrator	J, I know what you mean. What surprised me is that the PY cane rod is very short at 6'3" and it did allow me a little shorter/faster stroke compared to the Payne taper I had before. It was a little embarrassing :-) I guess you felt the same type of thing going from slightly faster rods back to your Orvis 3 wt huh? Andy, you're absolutely right. If we all liked the same thing then we wouldn't have 10 Gazillion choices of rods/actions. Plus we've already seen how our tastes in rod actions go back and forth. Last Edited By: jdub 03/17/09 11:14 PM. Edited 2 times.
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jdub		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/17/09 11:12 PM Administrator	Zenkoanhead wrote: But to say a ERN of 2 is really a 1, not buying that. You have only defined the parameters of the single performance window. That's probably because I only have a single performance window--the one that works for me I know what you mean though, and I have been pretty amazed at the range a line weights these cane rods will cast. If I go more than a full line weight up or down with most of my graphites I don't like the result at all, and most of them I don't even like to vary by a single line weight. With this PY Midge taper I can easily cast a 3, 4, 5 and my Orvis Power Taper which is really a 5.5. Cool stuff. Last Edited By: jdub 03/17/09 11:25 PM. Edited 1 time.
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flyflingerandy1		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 78 03/17/09 11:13 PM	Yep...Don, I have had this fight over ERN on another forum, and all I was told is to buy the rod and RATED line, and LEARN TO MAKE IT WORK. I laughed. Rods are designed for a certain line weight, whether the makers truly know what that line weight is or not is not our problem. Andy
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Zenkoanhead.clarksclassicfl...		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 968 03/17/09 11:22 PM	I wish one of our more enterprising members would try to generate a hexrod graph for some of our favorite ULs. I'll bet we could start to draw some conclusions. It is said that CCS does not work well for cane. I don't know. With compound tapers, could well be. I agree with you Jerry that the line that works best for you is the line to use. But barring some very odd variables, it should be pretty close to the ERN. Again, the ERN is correlated to the rod's intrinsic performance under deflection. As to manufacturers, line ratings are often pure fiction. The CCS data site gives both the factory rating and ERNs. A real eye-opener. Don
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jdub		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/17/09 11:23 PM Administrator	Andy, I like what Don just said about casting with the tip versus the whole rod. I'm used to tight loops and higher line-speed which is usually what you get when casting off the tip, where other guys are better at letting the whole rod load and the feel you get from doing that. And in all fairness I don't understand the whole ERN thing well enough to agree to disagree. For example I don't know how it resolves the two different casting styles above. I if cast a rod from the tip and Don loads the same rod halfway down the blank then how do we know what the optimal flex is?
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Zenkoanhead.clarksclassicfl...		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 968 03/17/09 11:31 PM	You defined a particular deflection as the optimal flex. Your question should be, does the definition correspond to my experience of optimal. On average, yes. But that is a very good point about tip casting being faster and tighter. I am more of a mid-rod guy. This results in a goodly number of my cane projects going up for sale! Don
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Zenkoanhead.clarksclassicfl...		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 968 03/17/09 11:40 PM	I should also note that one's particular casting style may not lend itself to achieving the optimum deflection. Overlining sometimes helps by changing the physics, but at a price. Ultrafast graphite comes to mind. Don
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jdub		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/18/09 12:13 AM Administrator	So with the CCS stuff who gets to define the optimal flex for a given rod? And how does this person know that his optimal is what the designer considered to be optimal? We've already demonstrated that your optimal is different than my optimal ;-) If I design a very fast rod that only flexes at the very tip for what I consider to be it's ideal line weight then what's to stop someone else from coming along and overlining it by 2 line weights to get it to flex 1/3 of the way down the rod and then declaring the rod's stated line weight as being way off? It seems like with CCS someone has defined an arbitrary amount of flex as being ideal for a given line weight or am I missing something (again). :-) I don't want to start a CCS thread, BTW. I'm just volunteering to be the guy who gets to define optimal Last Edited By: jdub 03/18/09 12:29 AM. Edited 1 time.
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flyflingerandy1		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 78 03/18/09 1:12 AM	Fly rods should load with thirty feet of the rated fly line out. If they don't, they are marked wrong. Plain and simple, that is how that works out. I think the CCS gives us a guideline to go by, and I wish the folks at a couple of companies realized that rods are fishing tools, not casting tools. Andy
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jdub		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2055 03/18/09 1:24 AM Administrator	Ha! Define "load"? :-) That's my point--you may not think it's loaded until it bends 1/3 of the way down and I might think it's loaded with only 1/8 of the rod flexed. Why is my opinion of "loaded" better than yours or yours better than mine? Seems like CCS can tell you how much a rod flexes under an arbitrary weight but I don't believe it can tell you that the rod designer's idea of optimal flexing or loading for that specific rod is right or wrong.
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